2n - 4n difference

[Gary S]

These photo's give a great representation of the same cross out of the same flask - one being 2n and the other 4n.

[Gary S]

So, a question from an amateur hobby grower to the experts. Would we expect to see the same sort of difference in a flower for a 4n to a 6n, that we see for a 2n to a 4n?

[cricketerry]

Gary, what is that cross?

[Gary S]

Well Terry, I was going to have a Sabre type guessing comp, but life is too short and seeing you asked - it is Cym Hot Chocolate Royale. The pictures were sent to me by the hybridizer who has remade the cross. It was originally done by the late Kevin Hipkin's and registered in 2013. I have 2 plants from the remake but both are yet to flower but growing well. Probably the closest any Cym hybrid has come to having a black flower. The hybridizer says the actual flower is a lot darker than shown in the photo's.

I think he said he only got one 4n plant out of the flask he grew on, so I don't hold out much hope that any of my 2 plants will be 4n.

[cricketerry]

Thanks Gary, fingers crossed you do get a 4n even if the odds are against it.

[MrCym]

Gary, this post has really rattled my memory! I've got a few spare minutes tonight so I'll try and tie it all together. Napa Naiad (Cabernet 'Noel Wilson' 2n X Cym. devonianum 'Geyserland' ) was our hybrid. The registration was made by a little jerk who traded under several names, such as Jimi Fox, when he really was one, Norbert Gomes! Never had the courtesy to ask permission of course! Kevin had a flask from us, that's how Napa Naiad got to Australia. The most significant Cabernet hybrid as a diploid, was Esk Claret, a foundation diploid color parent for Geyserland Orchids.

Sometime around 1986, we had South Pacific Orchids' Lab make us a small clonal run of a Cabernet 'NW' meristem and treat the plantlets with Colchicine. From that came Cabernet 'Noel Wilson' 4n which has carried forward in one of our major red standard lines Red Sox (X Yowie Flame).

There is clearly no doubt that your picture shows a 2n and a 4n but don't despair, the 4n's are always a little slower to mature so you may still get lucky.

Let me highjack this thread a little to add MY thoughts on the three Australian Cym species. It is fascinating to read where two albas sib-crossed do not produce any alba progeny in your comments. My thoughts are that Cym. madidum is clearly linked to the Himalayan species (Fertile F1 diploid offspring are common) but Cym. canaliculatum and Cym Cym. suave are much more difficult when bred to other Cym. species/hybrids. Apart from John Fogerty which is bred from a converted 4n Bunyip, I struggle without any success at all after maybe a dozen pollinations using Ray Davies 4n(Game of Love X Scallywag) as either a pod or pollen parent. Pods, yes, viable seed, not easy at all. Thus far almost impossible.

We registered Canal Parish a long while ago and it is a dream to grow. It is almost constantly in bloom here in El Retiro and I'm inspired to explore it much further of late. My experience is that it is almost impossible to use as a pollen parent. The pollen seems constantly to go off even at the cracking bud stage. It would be invaluable to use on our 6n's like Llewellyn Kouba but nil results to date. As an added note, I have not ever found 6n pollen to make seed with any diploid so the crossing order must be 2n onto 6n!

Why am I just now hitting Canal Parish 'NH' 2n with say pollen off Cym. parishii 'Sanderae' 2n and Cym. parishii 'Emma Menninger' 4n? Well largely to insert some brighter color if possible. Much as I admire floriferousness in the Cym. canaliculatum progeny, the colors are dull in the wider public evaluation. Spring for them embodies colors like pink, bright green etc. Now, I am not sure I will live long enough to see those results but at least I'm trying to leave a genetic framework that younger enthusiasts can run with. We welcome input, success stories of Australian species hybridizing etc.

In a final comment, readers should understand why I named the hybrid between our 4n insigne and Cym. madidum 'NH' 4n as Cym Bert Ruiter. Simply, I see this as a truly epic step forward which leads me to wonder why nobody did it previously??? Just today, I crossed our exclusive Cym. devonianum 'NH' 4n onto both Cym Bert Ruiter #2 4n (the red one) and Cym Bert Ruiter 'Christmas Gold' 4n (the most floriferous one). Neither have pseudobulbs as large as a well-grown Cym. madidum 4n and if we can get seed from both, we will surely spread the seedlings far and wide. That's what future-focused hybridizers should do!