Thanks for the reply Andy, obviously mistakes can and will happen outside of your control, so not a perfect world at all.

The 2 crosses you describe should be first rate, Cym Canal Parish is a beauty - well it has to be with canaliculatum in it!!

Do you remember if the canaliculatum parent when you did the initial cross was a sparkesii form or the inland typical green/brown form - my guess would be the darker sparkesii form.

I have flowered and so have others a Cym Helen Bannerman that was made with madidum alba x canaliculatum alba - all those that have flowered so far are very dark. So the culprit here at play is definitely the canaliculatum alba. There is a lot we do not know here with the alba groups. Definitely a great subject for a PhD for a very bright University Botanist group - but I suspect that will never happen. In fact the hybridizer has done the cross twice with different alba's of the 2 species and not an alba Helen Bannerman to be seen - all are dark. He is adamant there were no mix ups in the actual flower pollination, flasking and seedlings out of flask for both crosses.

Well Gary, the first cross had to be 100% alba as both parents we still have and they are truly alba. The Cutesie is a plant from Milton Carpenter. It is a Cym. pumilum hybrid and seemed quite fertile but when I tried to use its pollen, no joy at all so it has been discarded. Apparently it was a moderately fertile triploid.

Mistakes can happen, at the Lab, also some of the Thai numbers require keen observation and certainly I need to wear glasses almost continuously now. But seeing that we offer hundreds of seedling flasks, I think our product is accurately numbered most all of the time. My apologies on the Jocelyn Brooke mislabel.

On a more positive note, I made two very important WT hybrids today. Firstly, I crossed Cym. parishii 'Sanderae' FCC/RHS 2n onto Cym Canal Parish 'NH' 2n. If we get a good pod, almost certain, the cross will be treated with Oryzalin and my hope is to brighten the color up markedly. The second hybrid is Canal Parish 'NH' 2n X Cym. parishii 'Emma Menninger' 4n and that pod will also be treated with Oryzalin to give us some invaluable hexaploids! As I see it, WT Cyms will comprise at least 50% of the Cym minis and intermediates within the next decade. Exciting times.

No not vague at all, just stating a well known fact. I had to dig out my notes and records, but here are details on 2 NHO crosses from the past.

From the Guests 2017 NHO seedling catalogue - Jocelyn Brooke 'Christmas Gold' x Ava Maria 'Key lime Sherbert' 4n was described as mini alba's. Bought 2 of them and both flowered pink.

From the Guests 2018 NHO seedling catalogue - 2409 Cutesie x Dolly had a description of green tetraploids. Again bought 2 of them and both flowered a light orange and definitely not tetraploid.

Now, if the expected description was correct then there must have been a mix up in flasking, or deflasking or a label mix up.

So unless one can 100% guarantee there is no mix up in the chain from sowing seed, to replating, to defasking, to adding correct labels or indeed sending out an order with no mix up with labelling, then a description in a catalogue could be quite meaningless.

So, with the above 2 examples, if there was no mix up at all in the chain from mother flask to a seedling order being despatched - then the catalogue description has to be questioned.

Welcome to the real world where mistakes are made.

Not sure what's going on by my posting came up as a Guest posting, is this as a consequence to the new forum format?

Hobbyist's may not be familiar with the parents of a cross, I know that it is a much larger ask but having photos of the parents used may assist a purchase decision.

Terry, both diploids and if I may say so, exactly what I expected. Of course we get fewer flowers on the plants of the tetraploid pair but they're far from shy and the count on the 'ER' one is above 15. Much appreciated posting.

Gary, that's very vague....! I'm not worried about anyone else's seedlings but can you give me a couple of NHO crossings that left you feeling they were nothing like the cross expectations???

And here are photos of two plants from the cross. The close up is mine and the whole plant is Brian's. One of the best .

Well Andy, you have to remember that most hobbyists and members around here would not have the knowledge that you have to predict what a certain hybrid or cross might turn out like, and I am sure you are off the mark sometimes with your thoughts. I have bought many seedlings (NHO included) that eventually flower nothing like the original description in the catalogue.

and more importantly, why they DON'T buy certain crosses! If I said that I am a mediocre judge of people's taste in Cymbidium hybrids, I'd be 100% honest with you!

Example, we made a hybrid some time ago that was registered as Cym Diane De Langhe. The hybrid is named for the lady that sold Bert Ruiter his first Cymbidium species, Cym. grandiflorum. Prior to that, Bert and his father were carnation growers..... that damn Cym caused young Bert to go off the rails!

So we have two 4n selections from the hybrid, one a white alba and the other a green alba. The white alba is stunning but it is a little finicky in El Retiro so we have to treat it kindly. The other one, Diane De Langhe 'El Retiro' 4n is close to a weed! It makes two growths from every bulb, produces two tall spikes per new bulb and lasts exceptionally well for a Cym. tracyanum 4n hybrid. Yet, when it is crossed with alba pollen parents like Cym. erythrostylum album 2n or Belgian Snow 'Corona' 4n or Gateway to Gold 4n or Sara Sierra 'El Retiro' 4n, flasks orders languish under 20 replates...... Maybe potential customers are not seeing what I'm seeing?